Happy New Year all you fine Beaming people!
My Model 8 lacks sufficient history for me to warrant stripping the whole thing down, checking and rebuilding.
It has occurred to me that videoing the project might be if use and also benefit other members who might be in a similar position. In any case, there are some very knowledgeable folks here so, I would be grateful for any input, comment, critique etc etc.
Follow the story from here onwards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oal7mImPANE
happy 2016 everyone,
Andy
Very nicely produced Andy. Are there only 2 episodes - I can't see any further ones?
i'm filming as I go along Ian - there's one more to edit then I start breaking her down. Thanks for the support!
Happy New Year
Andy
Morning all - would someone be kid enough to check my labelling and let me know if these items are called anything different?:
Probably the deliberate mistake to catch us all out but you have transposed exhaust and inlet valves.....
Clutch adjust cover is a bit odd but logically correct.
Not a deliberate mistake Ian - I genuinely did not know - I suppose the valve nearest the exhaust ports would logically be the exhaust valve. I stand corrected and thank you.
Andy
I look forward to the tale unfolding.
I hope to have my Model 10 up & running soon - am having a new mag sprocket made for it. If you need any complex machining done I know a chap who can....
One of the problems with these older bikes is, as I think you're maybe discovering, that they need a lot more work than the vendors would have you believe. Personally I would never sell a bike that I wouldn't jump on tomorrow for a 200-mile trip but others' standards seem less rigorous.
Evening all,
Label checking again - and I have a blank space - is this the rocker box?
Thanks all
Andy
Hi Andy,
Your blank space is the rocker box, but you've labelled the crankcase as the gearbox. Please don't take this the wrong way but have you pulled many engines apart before, as this beautiful bike may not be the one you wish to learn on ?
Whilst old bikes aren't 'rocket science', there are certain aspects/ techniques that are often only learnt the hard way, and just like when I try to follow Delia's recipes, there are things that are obvious to the more experienced, but the cooking novice like me seem to be unaware of...
I suppose what I'm saying in a nutshell is that to make an assessment of your engines rebuild,you should at least be as or more capable than the guy who bolted it together?
All in my humble opinion of course, good luck , it looks a cracking bike
Edit to add- Secondary chaincase is better known as the Timing Cover
Thanks Dave,
I agree that the strip down is somewhat daunting but, I have the generous help of a couple of very experienced friends who are kindly handing down their knowledge. Since I am very grey about the bike's history and ferociously eager to learn her inside out, I'll be taking small steps. The gearbox oil was pretty old but no foreign material in there. I do want to take the head off and check the piston, rings and cylinder. Ultimately, I need to have the confidence that she will go a bit further than just down the street and back.
Thanks again for your corrections on the shot.
Andy
That did cross my mind Dave, but these are very simple machines. If Andy has sensible friends and doesn't start hammering at things that won't come off he should be OK.
Bikes of this age will have been through innumerable ham-handed owners - one of the main problems may be working out what has been creatively modified....
On a slightly different tack, I think the idea of a video series from a newcomer is a good one as long as everything is checked for accuracy - preferably before posting the videos on youtube. We've all come across the instruction manuals for various devices that have clearly been written by someone who already knows how the thing works, and doesn't answer what to them is an obvious question. Or as Robert Pirsig had it, they find the person on the shop floor who doesn't seem busy and get them to do it.
It's fascinating that the only literature available when our bikes were new was a 30-page or so booklet and a very blurry parts list. Compare that with the extensive manuals available for modern machines (better not to mention Haynes!).
Hi all,
If Andy has more experienced friends then I'm sure all will be fine, they are simply constructed and with guidance all will be well.
Good luck with the strip down, you're a natural in front of the camera anyway, and it's not the usual shaky YouTube type film, very professional !
Best wishes
Thank you Gents,
If there are any inaccuracies within the videos, it is a simple edit to correct so please feel free to comment and critique - these are for the benefit of all.
Final table check of the handlebars please:
Excellent quality video; not sure you should strip the engine down though. Worth checking that oil is circulating and that the oil indicator pokes out 1/4 inch also does it smoke when warm or have any nasty noises? Then get 100 miles on the clock before trying to repair something that "ain't broke." Nice to see the engine runs so safe to assume the carburetter and petrol feed is ok and nothing leaking.
Before you set off though check all the controls and lubricate the cables. Pay particular attention to the chain adjustment and brakes. Condition of tyres and do they hold air for a few weeks? Is the clutch ok? Do the fork spindles have any play? Safety should be the emphasis.
Looks to me as though the machine has been nicely restored and hopefully the person who did the work used new inner tubes and replaced all bearings and bushes.
I would quite enjoy popping down to Wiltshire to give it a look over. Otherwise look forward to seeing it on the Les Newman run
Cheerio for now
Vic
WRT handlebar photo: dimmer is more usually known as dipswitch (in the UK at least). You will know that it's been fitted backwards ie the lever should point towards the grip.
I believe the usual layout is to use the inverted lever on the LHS for the valve lifter and have a conventional clamped lever for the clutch.
I loved the professionalism of the video and presentation - well done! It will be a very valuable addition to the data available for new Beamers.
A couple of comments:
Strictly speaking, the cover labelled as the secondary chaincase is known as the Magneto Chain Cover. The timing cover is inboard of this.
Clutch adjust cover is much better than the Spares List description: Dome over Clutch Spring!
The valve lift lever should be the reverse lever on the LH bar end. Using it as the clutch will not give sufficient lift on the clutch plates. The clutch lever is a conventional type on the LH bar end.
Thanks for the input Phutton,
If the rain holds off tomorrow, I'll do some more filming and edit Part 3.
Cheers again
Andy
Part 3 is up on youtube for those interested - thanks again for the inputs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEMKpe2aACc
The tank is now off and it is evident that some re-wiring is necessary - Part 4 in production!
Recommend decent wire and supplier?
Cheers
Andy
I always use Vehicle Wiring Products. Their thinwall cable is excellent - I've rewired my Model 10 in black, sheathed in a nylon woven sleeve which is unoriginal but doesn't look out of place.
www.vehicle-wiring-products.co.uk/VWPweb2000/homepage/home.html
VWP also supply control cable components which I also use as well as all sorts of connectors, terminals, heatshrink etc etc.
They have quite a high delivery charge (although not as eye-watering as some) so it's as well to make a comprehensive list before ordering. I always find I need more cable than I think......
Are you going to keep the 3-brush dynamo setup with associated half-charge resistor in the headlamp switch? I've done this although have yet to use it in anger.......
ps that horn is of course anachronistic, and one of my pet hates is those pre-insulated crimp on connectors.
A thought on the non operation of the horn..With good stoving on the handlebars the horn horn button may be effectively insulated from the rest of the bike ( the power goes to the horn and the button earths the other side making it work) you may have to remove some paint or run a separate earth to the button.
I used to have my footrests in the position yours are on my 9A ( basically a 600 version of your bike) but I found that on tight corners and roundabouts they grounded, watch out for this..john
I did notice a thin black wire running to the horn button in one of the pics so that's probably for an earth. But as I say, that horn is entirely wrong and spoils what is a nice looking bike.
Beautiful quality; I notice that the magneto points cover is a later bakelite type that allows fitment of a remote cut out button. It should really be fitted with an aluminium cover similar to a chaincase type. A company called "Inaspin" run by John or Paul Goodall in Burton on Trent used to make these.
I think the whole end plate (and maybe the mag itself?) is a later type. Mine (1931) has a nice brass cover which has a very flat profile and in fact holds the ring cam in place (intentional or not I don't know!)
I agree about the horn - sticks out like a dogs whatsits.
I'll replace this as and when I can get an alternative.
Away for a few days, then back at it.
Thanks all
Hi Andy
Nice looking Model 8. Interesting project to understand the workings of a 1930's bike and sharing your discoveries along the way with everyone.
I can't add much to what others have added already. Just a word of caution when you take the head off the engine and put it back together. Take care to ensure that the head stud bolts are level. If you don't and you tighten the head you could crack the rocker box securing lugs. It's a weakness and you commonly see welded rocker box covers. The earlier models had side plates which bolted to the head and I don't know why Sunbeams made the change.
The only other engine weakness is sometimes the rivets can come loose on the flywheels. When you strip it down look for this. It's expensive to fix. I've not long had a model 9 set repaired with new oversized shafts main bearings and small end fitted. It should be good for another 80 odd years now.
The tank is interesting on your bike the flip top arrangement was fitted to the racers (80's and 90's). One thing you will find out is that you will never see two Beams which look the same. I put it down to the fact that they were hand build and the end customer could specify extras they wanted.
Happy biking looking forward to how your series develops.
David
WM
Part 4 - Tank removal, for those of you following this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGDdfKDZij4
cheers
Andy
Hi Andy.
More good stuff although I suspect if you're going into this much detail this may turn into something of a saga!
A few minor points which I hope you don't mind.
1. The thing you refer to as a fuel control valve is in fact a fuel tap.
2. You mention spanners / bolt sizes. There are 2 entirely different "Imperial" systems for spanners - A/F which are used on USA-built machinery and a lot of 1960s British vehicles such as Norton, BMC etc. A/F means "Across Flats" and the spanner size is denoted by the distance across the flats of the nut / bolt. Threads for these are either UNF or UNC. A 5/16" UNF bolt will have a 1/2" A/F spanner.
As you correctly point out, the Sunbeam (and virtually all British vehicles earlier than the 1960s) uses the British Standard convention. Here, the spanner size is denoted by the bolt diameter. Interestingly, hexagon sizes for BSW (coarse) are one size down than those for BSF (fine) so 5/16 Whit is the same hexagon as 3/8" BSF. I will not go into thread forms at this point but at some stage you will need to know the difference between the BSF / BSW and CEI (Cycle) threads. A/F spanners DO NOT fit BS nuts / bolts. Neither do metric spanners although sometimes they can be useful for worn / damaged fasteners. Sunbeam, like other manufacturers of the time, may also have used some oddball sizes / threads.
3. I would have removed the seat before the tank as it's very easy to catch the latter on the forks when removing it and damage the finish. With the seat off it's easy to withdraw it backwards.
4. I have abandoned my one-time cherished Moore & Wright micrometers and now use a cheap digital caliper. I cannot tell any difference in accuracy, it's much easier to use, and offers the facility to change between metric and imperial at the push of a button. In any case. a metric micrometer would not be ideal for working on a bike such as the Sunbeam.
Keep it up!
Thanks Ian,
Believe me, I am learning a vast amount each day and of course, what I am looking at now may well be opposite to what I assumed to be correct back at Part 1. That's a great deal of useful information on the spanner sizes and now that my BSFs are here, I have to explain to Mrs C why I need so many spanners!
The Carb and Float Chamber being stripped down now, but its perishing in my garage...
Onward!
The tank fettling episode - Part 5:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhPYKhXAiUg
Andy,
A few comments about the last chapter:
1. Before 1932 threads were BSC and 5/16 studs had 26 threads per inch (tpi). Then they changed to BSF with 22 tpi .... the nut looks awfully floppy on the stud. You have used a bsf die and am wondering whether this is correct and whether you have the right nut? The rubber washers look to be about 1/4 inch thick which is a bout right.
2. Has the inner of the tank been sealed with a coating? This used to be brand called Petseal that does react with modern fuels and causes the carburetter to get blocked and all sorts of problems. Does the inside surface feel sticky?
3. The petrol tap should have a gauze filter. This " tapered cock" type I find particularly troublesome and they tend to bind in use. There are better ones out with ethanol resistant seals and a filter. Yours has has 1/4 BSP thread fitting (that's British Standard Pipe by the way) in the tank.
Hope this is helpful for your excellent informative videos
Vic
Excellent feedback Vic,
This is exactly what we need in terms of critique so that we can all benefit - many thanks for your input.
Part 6 will be about the fuel tap which I have stripped down and re-built (the wrong way up first time!)
Cheers
Andy
Do you have a copy of The Vintage Motorcyclist's Workshop by Radco (published by Haynes)? This was unobtainable for years but has recently been reprinted.
It's the best collection of information on fettling old bikes I've ever come across.
Indeed I do Ian - got it just last week. Bedtime reading when Mrs C has found I have nicked her towels and baking trays!
Cheers
Andy
Quote from: VicYouel on January 14, 2016, 05:41:22 PM
Before 1932 threads were BSC and 5/16 studs had 26 threads per inch (tpi).
Vic
It's worth mentioning that not all CEI (Cycle) threads are 26 tpi - some are 20tpi although this is deprecated in the British Standard. For example, the clutch stops on my Model 10 are 5/8" x 20tpi. It is however true that 5/16" are always 26 tpi - and 1/4" BSF are 26 tpi as well so non-purists can mix & match these.
I haven't viewed that video yet but hadn't realised you were getting into threads. You will by now have read the appropriate chapter in the book!
WRT taps and dies, Tracy Tools are excellent suppliers of all thread types at reasonable prices.
www.tracytools.com
Quote from: Andy Cubin on January 13, 2016, 04:38:44 PM
Part 4 - Tank removal, for those of you following this:
Call that a spanner?
These are spanners:
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e398/iansoady/workshop/spanners_zpsz4osuzax.jpg)
.... and saws (plus more spanners)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e398/iansoady/workshop/saws_zpswdhc21qk.jpg)
.... and hammers (plus more spanners)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e398/iansoady/workshop/hammers_zps6y3mn5vl.jpg)
.... and machine shop (plus more spanners)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e398/iansoady/workshop/machine20shop_zpsvjs8nghw.jpg)
Can't find a way for photobucket to orient them correctly.......
Hi Andy.
Now watched the episode - more good stuff. Just a couple of points in addition to Vic's:
1. I would always take studs out before applying the die as it's very easy to slip and put a ding in the paint. This is easily done by locking 2 nuts together on the thread. However:
2. That thread you show yourself running the nut down is far too far gone. The 2-nut dodge mentioned above may not work - you may be forced to use mole grips. Remember that you have to take into account the thickness of the frame lug and a rubber washer underneath. So I would bite the bullet and make new studs.
3. This is easy enough - with the studs out check the thread in the tank which is usually BSW (also known as Whitworth - a coarse thread). You really need one of these:
(http://championpartsonline.com.au/image/cache/data/misc/threadgauge-500x500.jpg)
To make a stud, the easiest way is to get a bolt - there are loads of online suppliers of both stainless and plated items - (note a bolt has a plain shank with the end threaded - if the thread runs all the way to the head it's called a setscrew) with the Whitworth thread on one end and a long enough shank for the Cycle or BSF thread for the nut. Cut off the head leaving the right length for the fine thread then use your die to cut the thread. Or you may be lucky enough to find someone who will supply studs.
Keep it up - it's a bit cold in the garage today! Although it does look to me as though the filming was done on a balmy summer's day......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR3znb2D1U0
Part 6 for the Fuel Tap strip down.
Thanks for the advice Ian - once I have sourced all the bits. I'll make new studs and re-edit Part 5.
Cheers
Andy
Another nice episode Andy. I'd never thought of using those interdental brushes - good tip. And I liked the diagram although "union pipe" wouldn't be the term I'd use.
Most taps have a copper or brass mesh filter on the tank end to stop any large bits getting through although I see yours didn't. Another thing you might consider especially if the tap has been leaking at all (and those metal-to-metal ones are notorious for slight weeping) is to lap the conical section into the body using metal polish - Brasso used to be the usual choice. You do this in a similar manner to grinding in valves - a thin smear of polish on the taper then oscillate backwards and forwards till the faces have a nice matt finish. Yours didn't look too bad - in extreme cases you need to use fine grinding paste. And of course in either case a thorough wash afterwards to get rid of it.
I use carb cleaner these days rather than meths as it's designed for the job.
I didn't see a spring under the nut - these taps usually have one to hold the tapers firmly together. And of course if that nut unscrewed itself you's have petrol gushing down over the spark plug etc so I'd be putting some low strength loctite or similar on it.
ps this ebay item shows both the gauze and spring: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CHROME-FUEL-TAPS-2-LEVER-TYPE-BSA-TRIUMPH-NORTON-AJS-ARIEL-SUNBEAM-MATCHLESS-/221998945432?hash=item33b02b1498:g:pbwAAOSw5dNWnVH~ - although the chrome plating is non-standard.
Superb Ian - many thanks - I am still a bit of a schoolboy :-\
Label check time please folks - I am stripping the carb/float chamber so want to get the terminology right before narrating the video. Could you please check my labels on these shots and the ones that follow and correct my mistakes?
Many thanks
Andy
and...
as well as...
also:
Looking good Andy. For some reason Amal spelt it "carburetter" but carburettor is the more normal spelling. Most of the terms are fine although I would call it the air slide. Perhaps good to call the needle "throttle needle" to avoid confusion with the float chamber needle when you get there, and it's cutaway not cut out.
Interestingly your carb doesn't seem to have a throttle stop unless it's on the other side (but it's normally on the same side as the pilot air screw). The pilot air screw looks to be very firmly screwed down as the spring is fully coilbound. A normal starting point would be 1 1/2 to 2 turns out from fully home (but not tightly screwed in as it's easy to distort the screw and its seating).
Thanks Ian - my diagrams amended accordingly. You are correct - there is no throttle stop. Pilot screw was screwed in by me to not fall loose during the strip down - now adjusted.
This shot should be correct:
and finally for today:
Last photo.
Brass bit in the bottom is the main jet and the part labelled 'main jet' is the throttle needle jet.
The 106 on the side is the size, same goes for the number on the brass main jet.
make sure you get genuine jets from Amal. There are a lot of 'copies' out there labelled 'Amal' but not made by them and the sizes are not correct at all.
Good stuff so far by the way..It's a pretty steep learning curve you are on..John
Thanks John,
Main Jet pic is re-labelled thanks to you.
Steep is not the word! Plenty of help from you and the other good folks at MS.
Cheers
Andy
Part 7 - The Carb strip down for any of you following:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK8tdv8b5Iw
any glitches or errors, please let me know
cheers
Andy
Another edge-of-the-seat episode!
More from the armchair critic:
0. The title has a missing "r" in carburettor........
1. It's the slide that goes up & down not the jet block (unless there's something seriously wrong)
2. There is normally a spring clip that bears on the knurled carb top to stop it unscrewing itself (it's also quite effective stopping you from unscrewing it intentionally). I always put a little wedge made out of a spring clothes peg to hold this out of engagement when removing / replacing the cap as it makes life easier.
3. I know all your nuts, bolts etc are slack to start with but I would always take the float chamber cap off while the chamber is still attached to the carb & bike as otherwise it's hard to hold. Same applies to the base hexagon.
4. What I don't think you mentioned is the small hexagon towards the side of the float chamber cap that distorts the thread to act as a locking device. This should be slackened before removing the cap.
Sorry if this all seems somewhat nit-picking. I would have loved something like this 50 years ago when I first started working on bikes. All I had were my dad's well-thumbed Motorcycles and how to Manage Them and the Motorcyclist's Workshop.......
Thanks Ian,
I'll pick up these points tomorrow and re-edit.
Top of the engine coming off tomorrow as well - very excited.
Andy
Hi Andy.
I'll be away for a couple of weeks so will leave you in peace!
But look forward to catching up........
Enjoy your break Ian,
pester me whenever
Andy
Hi Andy,
A few points:
1. The correct AMAL carb for a 1933-5 model 8 should be engraved 76/001
2. The internal choke diameter is 15/16 ins, the small jet should be stamped with the number 140 and the slide is probably engraved 6/4. The needle position should be number 3 (counting from the top I think?).
3. Set the air screw at 1 and a half turns out. Good starting point.
4. Check that the slide is a very good fit..... I employ a sucking and blowing technique on the manifold to ensure there is suction through the pilot jet when the side is fully closedl.
5. In your video the gasket on the large bottom union is not shown.... make sure when fitted it does not obscure t he hole in t he bottom of the brass block.
6. I am wondring why there is no throttle stop/adjuster and also how the two cables are adjusted.
7. As Ian has stated, genuine AMAL parts are essential. I had a horrible experience with a brass pattern throttle needle that was only 5 thou out on the taper diameter. Martin Bratby is the best man for carb stuff IMHO.
All the best and keep the cameras rolling.... this could take a year!!
Vic
Gents,
Working on the engine now - need some labelling checking for accuracy
Cheers
Andy
and...
Left hand side ????? at top is the rocker box
???? cylinder head bolt , the cylinder stud and head bolt are separate and the rocker box bolt bolts to the head bolt
right hand side Push tube not push rod..the pushrod is inside the tube..
Getting there though..john
The latest instalment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2nK2XchdB0
;D
More interesting stuff Andy. Seat is normally referred to as saddle (which I see you use as well). The split pins you refer to as holding on the leather cover (actually normally leathercloth) are (or should be) in fact bifurcated rivets.
Otherwise looking good.
I'm looking forward to the oily bits which presumably you've already tackled going by other posts.
Into the engine now so need this diagram label-checking for accurate terminology:
Thanks
Looks fine to me. If I was picky I'd call it an oil control ring and probably omit the "spring" from circlip.
Part 10 - introduction to the electrics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1dEui3anlk
Part 9 is still in production while I wait for my cylinder head to come back - about 10 days or so.
Meanwhile, a bit of rewiring...
Very good if a bit short*
*see what I did there?
Holding my sides Ian!
Deliberately short as it is the intro - now well into re-wiring so this subject will be a few episodes.
Did you get the bike going?
Yes!
See other thread......
Part 9 - The Engine Strip Down:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG0r6YJJ0SU
Mole Grips!!!!
The proper tool is a C spanner which are available in many different sizes and will not mark the surface of the collars. In extremis however I have been known to use Stillsons.......
It would be useful to mention that the engine should be at TDC on the compression stroke when removing the rocker box as otherwise it can distort as you slacken off the bolts.
I always put a screw of rag in the plug hole as things like the shims you mention can easily find their way down there. Not a problem if you're removing the head of course.
I would have removed the pushrods & tubes before lifting the head to avoid potential damage.
Valve "Retainers" / "keepers" are normally called collets.
The spacer / shim is a head gasket. I believe that all Sunbeams (sure someone will correct me) had a ground head / barrel joint although my Model 10 did have a copper flame ring which I have refitted.
Lifting the barrel: I usually lift it about 3" or so then hold it in position with a bit of flat bar between the fins and resting on the holding down studs. It's then easy to put more rag in the top of the crankcase so if there are any bits of ring etc they will be caught in it rather than dropping into the crankcase. I'm always alone in my workshop......
You normally do get some sideways movement on the big end - what is unacceptable is any up and down movement. This can be difficult to detect especially if the engine has run recently and the bearing is full of oil. Again, the little end can have a small amount of sideways play without a problem but up & down requires attention.
Hope this all doesn't sound like nitpicking!
Good comments Ian and as for mole grips UGHHH
Vic
Battery, Horn and Dipswitch!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4sprAKPisw
Good episode Andy. I too use those little batteries which don't have much in reserve but as I don't plan extensive (or any) night-time riding not a problem. You have the same H52 headlamp as I do (very well made device) but your switch looks like a later one. The original has sprung copper blades that make the connections to the ammeter, a half-charge resistor, and even a handy wiring diagram:
(http://www.iansoady.org.uk/Sunbeam/images/IMG_2187.jpg)
I always put a fuse in the earth lead. The rationale is that if anything shorts the live battery terminal to earth the fuse will blow rather than melting the earth lead....
I did discover this when I managed to do precisely that with a carelessly wielded screwdriver on a Matchless G80S.
For those of you mascochists out there:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM7ssxfhKz8
"..rebuilding is simply a reverse of the dismantling, so no need to spend too much time on that.." Ahem..! Putting them back together is the difficult bit in my experience, that's where the skill comes in - fitting piston to barrel without breaking rings, setting tappets, checking clearances etc ? Very professional look to the video though, have you done subjects other than bikes ?
All in the next episode Davetom.
As I dug around I found more and more things that needed fiddling with, so I decided to put all of that together in a single film on its own - currently in production!
And you have rumbled me...done a bit before!
Cheers
Andy
Look forward to the saga. Netflix knocking yet?